1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,823 Violence, brainwashing and despotism in the name of religion - Scientology. 2 00:00:04,923 --> 00:00:07,641 A church as a totalitarian system. 3 00:00:07,741 --> 00:00:10,544 Influential and worth billions. 4 00:00:10,644 --> 00:00:18,057 Famous actors such as John Travolta and Tom Cruise advocate openly the teachings that purport to aim for a better world,... 5 00:00:18,157 --> 00:00:21,507 ...where non-Scientologists are second class however. 6 00:00:21,607 --> 00:00:25,865 Mark Rathbun was one of the most powerful men in the Church of Scientology for 27 years... 7 00:00:25,965 --> 00:00:29,270 ...and the right hand of the controversial leader David Miscavige... 8 00:00:29,370 --> 00:00:34,444 - until the day that he is forced by him to punish a colleague and friend physically. 9 00:00:58,017 --> 00:01:04,205 Since then, the American and his family are being surveilled, filmed and harrassed around the clock. 10 00:01:04,305 --> 00:01:06,956 Mark Rathbun managed to escape. 11 00:01:07,056 --> 00:01:10,983 But the influence of the Church of Scientology on his life remains. 12 00:01:11,083 --> 00:01:16,844 Welcoming again. We'll start by asking why it was so difficult to get you here? 13 00:01:16,944 --> 00:01:20,380 How and why did Scientology try to prevent your appearance? 14 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,916 This being your debut on television worldwide. 15 00:01:26,437 --> 00:01:37,536 In the last 142 they even rented a house near my home... 16 00:01:37,636 --> 00:01:41,367 ...with over 80 people having uniforms and pictures of me... 17 00:01:41,467 --> 00:01:47,162 ...with my photo being crossed out and harrassing us several times a day... 18 00:01:47,262 --> 00:01:52,958 ...and driving by my house 20 times a day so I would understand they have me under surveillance. 19 00:01:53,058 --> 00:01:56,788 And shortly before I went to Hamburg they came back and said: 20 00:01:56,888 --> 00:02:01,110 You're going to meet the devil in person and you'll see what you get. 21 00:02:01,210 --> 00:02:08,182 They tried to stop me from doing this, bad-mouthed my wife and said I wanted to destroy Scientology. 22 00:02:08,282 --> 00:02:14,698 Before we ask Ursula Caberta, is she really the devil in the eyes of the organisation? 23 00:02:15,811 --> 00:02:19,380 Very much so in the eyes of the organisation. 24 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:25,928 We compared notes and I reached this state yesterday... 25 00:02:26,028 --> 00:02:30,545 ...we spoke at the interior ministry yesterday where they picketed... 26 00:02:30,645 --> 00:02:37,355 ...we made fun about the Spanish Inquisition where they burned two witches, Ursula and myself. 27 00:02:37,455 --> 00:02:43,085 This surveillance you mentioned, is there a physical threat... 28 00:02:43,185 --> 00:02:49,207 ...or is it rather something on the psychological, emotional level, trying to frighten you? 29 00:02:52,449 --> 00:02:58,833 I regard these as psy-ops, psychological measures. 30 00:02:58,933 --> 00:03:02,042 If I go to the post office or take my wife out for dinner... 31 00:03:02,142 --> 00:03:05,349 ...suddenly someone comes by or going to your car there's someone next to it... 32 00:03:05,449 --> 00:03:09,865 ...saying we know exactly where you're going, which restaurant. That's psychological. 33 00:03:09,965 --> 00:03:15,531 But they've also hired a cameraman as a member of their crew... 34 00:03:15,631 --> 00:03:19,559 ...who was always present and who got a bad conscience about a month ago... 35 00:03:19,659 --> 00:03:23,357 ...and spoke in Corpus Christi, Texas where I live to a newspaper... 36 00:03:23,457 --> 00:03:31,837 ...and told them he got the assignment with the intention to instigate a physical confrontation. 37 00:03:31,937 --> 00:03:37,108 To apprehend me and trying to establish criminal behaviour on my part. 38 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:44,049 That I hurt somebody or drove into his car, that's what they do. I don't know where this is supposed to go. 39 00:03:44,149 --> 00:03:50,106 Witnessing you being a likeable person, who doubtlessly is a victim... 40 00:03:50,206 --> 00:03:54,003 ...who appears as a repentant sinner on the press conference... 41 00:03:54,103 --> 00:03:59,110 ...but who's also an offender at the same time being part of the system for 27 years. 42 00:03:59,210 --> 00:04:03,170 You were regarded as someone who was an expert... 43 00:04:03,270 --> 00:04:06,706 ...at retrieving people who said "enough", I won't take part in this anymore,... 44 00:04:06,806 --> 00:04:10,570 I recognized this is not good for me, because it interferes with my family,... 45 00:04:10,670 --> 00:04:12,927 ...because it destroys my existance eventually. 46 00:04:13,027 --> 00:04:20,883 How did you get people to say "I'll come back, I'll stay with you", i.e. brain washing. 47 00:04:24,092 --> 00:04:31,131 I was actually at the top in Scientology being #2 under David Miscavige, the recognized leader of the organization. 48 00:04:31,231 --> 00:04:38,728 And he was preoccupied with those that worked internationally, which applied to ourselves. 49 00:04:38,828 --> 00:04:44,981 Someone who defects could say many things about him, financial crimes, taxes, etc. 50 00:04:45,081 --> 00:04:51,235 Depending on the value of the informations the member had we applied a range of techniques. 51 00:04:51,335 --> 00:04:57,390 Going to all bus stops saying he boarded the bus to the airport,... 52 00:04:57,490 --> 00:05:00,435 ...we checked flight bookings,... 53 00:05:00,535 --> 00:05:06,329 ...we were browsing through their biographies: Which friends did he have before Scientology? 54 00:05:06,429 --> 00:05:08,686 What about his family members? 55 00:05:08,786 --> 00:05:13,826 We sent a hole corps of people to check where they could go... 56 00:05:13,926 --> 00:05:16,937 ...visiting a family member, intercepted them. 57 00:05:17,037 --> 00:05:22,568 We even ransacked their files in order to follow up with psychological measures. 58 00:05:22,668 --> 00:05:29,542 A lot of things, virtually spying on psychological nodes in a person. 59 00:05:29,642 --> 00:05:36,023 Who's important to him? Ambush them in cafés, hotels, saying: "Come back!" and talking to him. 60 00:05:36,123 --> 00:05:42,770 Yes, if someone had sufficient attention on the part of David Miscavige... 61 00:05:42,870 --> 00:05:46,044 ...then we would continue with threats. 62 00:05:46,144 --> 00:05:50,530 You imply what could happen to someone if he continues, so better come back. 63 00:05:50,630 --> 00:05:57,340 That means that the system you are suffering from is the one you helped install? 64 00:05:58,748 --> 00:06:01,138 Yes, that's true. 65 00:06:01,238 --> 00:06:06,671 If you appreciate the anology: I helped bring the Frankenstein monster to life... 66 00:06:06,771 --> 00:06:10,633 ...and now it's torturing me. But I'm trying to do something about it. 67 00:06:10,733 --> 00:06:13,579 Please give us a glimpse into the organisation. 68 00:06:13,679 --> 00:06:17,967 I think there's many people sitting in front of the TV saying there's always this talk about Scientology,... 69 00:06:18,067 --> 00:06:22,158 ...they're dangerous, but how are they dangerous? Why are they dangerous? 70 00:06:22,258 --> 00:06:28,018 What is it they want primarily? What is the goal of this organisation and how powerful is it? 71 00:06:28,118 --> 00:06:39,052 Gladly. What I'm about to say is rather unique compared to others who quit. 72 00:06:39,152 --> 00:06:44,258 I'm not attacking the auditing, I'm not attacking the organisation. 73 00:06:44,358 --> 00:06:49,006 But I criticise how they're hurting people. 74 00:06:49,106 --> 00:06:54,834 If someone has done it and it starts to be about money, and more money... 75 00:06:54,934 --> 00:07:00,038 All those draconic tactics to extract money from people... 76 00:07:00,138 --> 00:07:04,689 ...that's one of the reasons I quit, it was only about money. 77 00:07:04,789 --> 00:07:06,883 But I don't attack the philosophy. 78 00:07:06,983 --> 00:07:13,234 In the organisation, they really try to get the last dime out of your pocket. 79 00:07:13,334 --> 00:07:20,372 It's dangerous and insidious that people find something interesting about this subject. 80 00:07:20,472 --> 00:07:24,596 They recruit someone, solve a problem in life... 81 00:07:24,696 --> 00:07:32,617 ...give him a motivation but actually they're only exploiting his plights and needs,... 82 00:07:32,717 --> 00:07:36,677 ...and giving him something so they can draw the last bucks out of his wallet. 83 00:07:36,777 --> 00:07:38,904 This is actually the danger and threat. 84 00:07:39,004 --> 00:07:42,374 Even worse is what happens when you turn your back on the system,... 85 00:07:42,474 --> 00:07:44,895 ...Ursula and me said that already,... 86 00:07:44,995 --> 00:07:46,794 ...then it's really becoming dangerous. 87 00:07:46,894 --> 00:07:51,280 Before we go into details with Ursula Caberta, a question concerning Hollywood celebrities. 88 00:07:51,380 --> 00:07:56,028 Time and again names are given. John Travolta and Tom Cruise are members. 89 00:07:56,128 --> 00:07:59,531 You did the so-called auditing with them. 90 00:07:59,631 --> 00:08:03,034 What role do they play, how powerful are they... 91 00:08:03,134 --> 00:08:08,175 ...and how do they use their money and connections to enforce interests of this church? 92 00:08:12,398 --> 00:08:16,524 It depends on how valuable, how famous someone is. 93 00:08:16,624 --> 00:08:21,828 Cruise is not comparable to Travolta. He's very close to the leader of the church. 94 00:08:21,928 --> 00:08:27,328 He is willing to do practically anything. He uses his connections, his networking... 95 00:08:27,428 --> 00:08:30,766 ...to assert his influence, and very much so in Germany. 96 00:08:30,866 --> 00:08:32,632 For instance? 97 00:08:32,732 --> 00:08:41,407 Well, in the nineties practically all A-listed actors... 98 00:08:41,507 --> 00:08:46,679 worked on parlamentarians and congressmen in America,... 99 00:08:46,779 --> 00:08:49,789 ...the Clinton government. All the way up and down... 100 00:08:49,889 --> 00:08:54,700 ...so as to position Germany as intolerant and anti-Scientology. 101 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,007 And saying this is not ok, actually anti-constitutional... 102 00:08:58,107 --> 00:09:04,817 ...and attempting to stop what Ursula Caberta does. 103 00:09:04,917 --> 00:09:09,958 And they did so with much success, she had to deal with problems... 104 00:09:10,058 --> 00:09:14,672 ...because the state department does this list every year: 105 00:09:14,772 --> 00:09:17,652 Discrimination against Scientology in Germany. 106 00:09:17,752 --> 00:09:20,730 Interesting, I was involved coordinated all of it... 107 00:09:20,830 --> 00:09:25,608 and I learned alot from the personal contact to her these last two days. 108 00:09:25,708 --> 00:09:30,126 And I realized how they exaggerated in their reports. 109 00:09:30,226 --> 00:09:33,761 Ms. Caberta, please explain this to us briefly. How is this meant? 110 00:09:33,861 --> 00:09:36,806 What? - That what he's explaining. 111 00:09:36,906 --> 00:09:41,324 An image was composed in America about Germany... 112 00:09:41,424 --> 00:09:48,494 In the organisation, there are certain procedures on how to handle external enemies. 113 00:09:48,594 --> 00:09:55,108 For once there's this department that is in charge, the mentioned secret service: The Office of Special Affairs. 114 00:09:55,208 --> 00:10:02,508 And then there's the possibility of how we manage by political influence or other means... 115 00:10:02,608 --> 00:10:09,449 ...to completely eliminate any critical discussion about the organisation in the best case. 116 00:10:09,549 --> 00:10:14,622 And how do we get Caberta and others that dealt with the organisation muzzled. 117 00:10:14,722 --> 00:10:21,531 To that end they planned to influence the US administration as much as possible. 118 00:10:21,631 --> 00:10:27,097 We Germans are still very touchy when yanks say something. 119 00:10:27,197 --> 00:10:32,204 And we're hearing now how this strategy was implemented exactly. 120 00:10:32,304 --> 00:10:39,013 I always knew he was responsible and I thought: "Dear Rathbun, stop goofing around." 121 00:10:39,113 --> 00:10:44,613 You have to picture it like this: Tom Cruise or John Travolta are visiting... 122 00:10:44,713 --> 00:10:47,396 ...and then they claim "We're being discriminated against". 123 00:10:47,496 --> 00:10:55,187 One of the big lies they brought up was that John Travolta's movies were being boycotted in Germany. 124 00:10:55,287 --> 00:10:58,692 Famous actors were not being shown. 125 00:10:58,792 --> 00:11:03,178 And I thought: Are they mad? I mean he makes stupid movies but we still show them. 126 00:11:03,278 --> 00:11:06,452 And they're even being watched. 127 00:11:06,552 --> 00:11:14,277 The only thing that happened was that the Junge Union, out of a stupid idea... 128 00:11:14,377 --> 00:11:22,004 ...was holding up some picketing signs in front of a cinema showing Mission Impossible in a small town. 129 00:11:22,104 --> 00:11:28,683 The Scientology organisation turns this into a complaint to the state department. 130 00:11:28,783 --> 00:11:33,922 From now on Tom Cruise's movies are being shown... 131 00:11:34,022 --> 00:11:37,884 ...and we're rightfully sensitive when it comes to artistic freedom in our country. 132 00:11:37,984 --> 00:11:41,027 Because we know of a time when this was not the case. 133 00:11:41,127 --> 00:11:43,613 And this is our sore point. 134 00:11:43,713 --> 00:11:50,555 And if celebrities come and say "we're not allowed to work in Germany"... 135 00:11:50,655 --> 00:11:57,790 ...then of course the Americans are wondering what's happening over here again at first. That's just the way it is. 136 00:11:57,890 --> 00:12:02,505 Preparating for this show I read about a story I couldn't believe. 137 00:12:02,605 --> 00:12:10,363 You said in an interview that a Tom Cruise indeed used his connections to the Clinton Administration,... 138 00:12:10,463 --> 00:12:13,081 ...that is, the president himself,... 139 00:12:13,181 --> 00:12:20,742 so that he calls Tony Blair to make sure the organisation feels comfortable in England. 140 00:12:20,842 --> 00:12:24,376 Did this happen on the highest political level? 141 00:12:27,552 --> 00:12:31,023 Yes, I was sitting next to him, when Cruise called him... 142 00:12:31,123 --> 00:12:39,634 ...and said: "Listen, contact Blair so we're doing better in England". 143 00:12:39,734 --> 00:12:45,527 And the chief, David, was present.... 144 00:12:47,623 --> 00:12:54,171 ...and he was waving the great international honorary medal in front of Cruise's eyes. 145 00:12:54,271 --> 00:12:59,115 And then he conversed with Clinton about how to do it. 146 00:12:59,215 --> 00:13:04,747 And maybe I'll call Blair's wife, she'll understand better. 147 00:13:04,847 --> 00:13:08,283 So they developed a strategy. Cruise and Clinton. 148 00:13:08,383 --> 00:13:11,459 What is difficult to understand is this: 149 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:16,010 You're sitting here telling what's happening and complaining about it and rightly so in my opinion. 150 00:13:16,110 --> 00:13:20,364 At the same time you're saying "I am adhering to the teachings." 151 00:13:20,464 --> 00:13:24,097 "I'm still a Scientologist." Why? 152 00:13:25,079 --> 00:13:33,395 I'm talking about secular behaviour, 153 00:13:33,495 --> 00:13:39,191 about interaction with the world and dealing with people who want to know more about the world. 154 00:13:39,291 --> 00:13:41,286 Just as Ursula for instance. 155 00:13:41,386 --> 00:13:45,019 On the other hand there's the creed, the belief, the practice of the religion. 156 00:13:45,119 --> 00:13:50,912 How do you find your way to a higher level. Those are two different kettle of fish. 157 00:13:51,012 --> 00:13:55,201 That is my statement, my message. 158 00:13:55,301 --> 00:14:01,422 And what I'm observing in Germany is that Ms. Caberta for instance sees it the same way,... 159 00:14:01,522 --> 00:14:04,893 ...independently from her allegations. 160 00:14:04,993 --> 00:14:10,230 If you do something at home that helps you, even spiritually, then just do it. 161 00:14:10,330 --> 00:14:14,977 Only when you go to the street and develop tactics and make policy with it... 162 00:14:15,077 --> 00:14:20,543 ...and you're ruining lives, etc. then I won't have any part in this. 163 00:14:20,643 --> 00:14:23,588 I see things very nuanced. 164 00:14:23,688 --> 00:14:26,928 Markus, I'm telling you, noone has tried that yet. 165 00:14:27,028 --> 00:14:31,250 I'm being attacked from all sides. It's not comfortable being at the center of attention. 166 00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:38,977 But I'm still maintaining, in the end it's most effective from your point, because for the first time in history of Scientology... 167 00:14:39,077 --> 00:14:42,938 ...we're seeing how active Scientologists are listening to me. 168 00:14:43,038 --> 00:14:47,129 Because I am not attacking the practice, the creed and the belief. 169 00:14:47,229 --> 00:14:55,544 The peaceful practice of the religion is all banned by them. 170 00:14:55,644 --> 00:15:00,782 They're not reading anymore, they're not allowed to have these conversations. 171 00:15:00,882 --> 00:15:04,286 Many people are hearing my message that they would not hear otherwise. 172 00:15:04,386 --> 00:15:06,414 Ms. Caberta, one question in this context. 173 00:15:06,514 --> 00:15:09,983 He's here at the invitation of the Hamburg senate... 174 00:15:10,083 --> 00:15:14,597 ...and was holding a big press conference yesterday receiving lots of media. 175 00:15:14,697 --> 00:15:19,510 Why does the Hamburg senate invite an avowed Scientologist? 176 00:15:19,610 --> 00:15:22,752 Well first of all because I wanted to. 177 00:15:22,852 --> 00:15:27,368 This is for starters, and secondly because it's necessary... 178 00:15:27,468 --> 00:15:32,673 Avowed Scientologist... well yes he should read his Hubbard. 179 00:15:32,773 --> 00:15:35,325 I'm sorry we will never agree on certain things. 180 00:15:35,425 --> 00:15:40,956 And that is the difference to those protesting on the streets: they're not even talking to me anymore. 181 00:15:41,056 --> 00:15:49,174 It's not about what Mr. Hubbard wrote down and whether someone believes what Hubbard believed for himself. 182 00:15:49,274 --> 00:15:54,020 The problem is what is being made out of the organisation. 183 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,476 Namely that it is running a closed shop. 184 00:15:56,576 --> 00:16:00,765 I never cared about what the individual Scientologist did. 185 00:16:00,865 --> 00:16:04,432 Because there rightfully is freedom of religion in this country. 186 00:16:04,532 --> 00:16:10,391 There is freedom of belief, anyone can believe in what he wants as we've seen with Ms. Kiesenwetter last time. 187 00:16:10,491 --> 00:16:14,613 She conjures some magic and there are people who believe it. 188 00:16:14,713 --> 00:16:19,034 I'm sorry, the seer from the Rhine. 189 00:16:19,134 --> 00:16:24,371 Ms. Caberta, you're being nasty. 190 00:16:24,471 --> 00:16:27,514 That's not what it is about. 191 00:16:27,614 --> 00:16:33,113 You have to look at what kind of organisation we have and what goals are laid down. 192 00:16:33,213 --> 00:16:37,664 And, not unimportant: who is at the pinnacle of the organisation? 193 00:16:37,764 --> 00:16:42,052 And over the years I read much of that stuff. 194 00:16:42,152 --> 00:16:45,817 I think I've read more Hubbard books than people in the organisation. 195 00:16:45,917 --> 00:16:55,148 So I can give an assessment and I can distinguish between stages of development of this organisation. 196 00:16:55,248 --> 00:17:02,220 Much earlier a very high ranking member at the time of Hubbard, 197 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,295 who visited us in 1994, the late Robert Vaugn Young, 198 00:17:07,395 --> 00:17:10,700 he would be so happy that Marty is out, I know that. 199 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,138 Back in 1994 he told me in Hamburg: 200 00:17:14,238 --> 00:17:21,964 If stopping this David Miscavige is unsuccessful, the man at the top of Scientology and successor to Hubbard,... 201 00:17:22,064 --> 00:17:27,726 ...if noone manages to stop him,... 202 00:17:27,826 --> 00:17:33,587 ...then Scientology is going to become one of the most fanatical organisations this world has ever seen. 203 00:17:33,687 --> 00:17:40,299 Fanaticism is the cue, as a conclusion I'd like to have Marty tell about the inner life of the organisation again. 204 00:17:40,399 --> 00:17:47,993 Is it true that employees are regularly exposed to vicious physical violence? 205 00:17:50,645 --> 00:17:53,035 Yes very much so. 206 00:17:53,135 --> 00:17:58,863 And you have mention Young who predicted it so prophetically. 207 00:17:58,963 --> 00:18:03,938 Yes, it got worse and worse, they became increasingly fanatic. 208 00:18:04,038 --> 00:18:12,156 Starting about the year of 2000, Miscavige began to use physical violence on a regular basis. 209 00:18:12,256 --> 00:18:15,921 On the highest level in the company of his managers. 210 00:18:16,021 --> 00:18:22,241 And that escalated on and on after 2000. 211 00:18:22,341 --> 00:18:30,590 He locked people, adult and old managers of the church,... 212 00:18:30,690 --> 00:18:34,224 ...in a room the size of this studio 24 hours. 213 00:18:34,324 --> 00:18:38,186 They couldn't go to bed, not eat, they were sleeping on the floor. 214 00:18:38,286 --> 00:18:41,591 They were prisoners of a confessional situation. 215 00:18:41,691 --> 00:18:47,779 Get up and confess your crimes against David Miscavige if he didn't like your nose. 216 00:18:47,879 --> 00:18:55,375 If what they told was not evil or sexy enough he would beat them up. 217 00:18:55,475 --> 00:19:02,676 And then he told the others do it among themselves without him. 218 00:19:02,776 --> 00:19:09,388 At some point it was three days because after the third day I could escape, I was locked up as well. 219 00:19:09,488 --> 00:19:13,088 So you beat employees? 220 00:19:14,823 --> 00:19:19,473 My own good friend with whom I worked for years, Mike Rinder. 221 00:19:19,573 --> 00:19:24,973 And I was specifically ordered by Miscavige to do it and even a second time. 222 00:19:25,073 --> 00:19:29,393 You could see it in the opening video. 223 00:19:29,493 --> 00:19:35,680 There was a point when I realised you're doing something that cannot be reconciled with your nature and your brain. 224 00:19:35,780 --> 00:19:45,699 Shortly after that I put an end to this story, took my bike and drove through the security gate never to return again. 225 00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:54,571 What is your recommendation to people who say "I want out" after this appeareance,... 226 00:19:54,671 --> 00:20:00,661 ...but who fear possible reprisals? 227 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:09,469 What I'm recommending is read my blog, and in my blog I set out saying... 228 00:20:09,569 --> 00:20:13,660 ...the most efficient way to deal with it... 229 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,458 Everybody has the sword of Damocles over his head, this fear. 230 00:20:17,558 --> 00:20:24,595 No, close ranks. Stand up massively and then you will have to resources and means to do something. 231 00:20:24,695 --> 00:20:29,638 And once you reach the point where people stand up together and keep standing boldly... 232 00:20:29,738 --> 00:20:34,385 ...and create a network then they will succeed. 233 00:20:34,485 --> 00:20:38,085 That's why they're setting all these people on me. 234 00:20:38,185 --> 00:20:43,978 To frighten them we need to take out the guy at the top. 235 00:20:44,078 --> 00:20:49,970 Thank you very much for visiting our studio, to you Ms. Caberta and to you, Mark. 236 00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:59,400 I wish you all the best and that the worst fears won't come true.